Priscilla Shumba: Founders don't usually say I have a sleep problem, but they say, I'm fine. I'm busy. But then we're making big decisions on exhausted brains, snapping at people we love, and calling it the cost of ambition today I am sitting down with Dr. Benjamin Long dual board certified and sleep medicine and pediatrics who has a unique calling to help people see sleep as both a medical need and a gift from God.

His work blends. Proven sleep medicine tools with biblical reflection, guided prayer and journaling prompts. Benjamin is affectionately known as the Wholehearted MD and Benjamin's book just came out a few days ago. Congratulations on that, Benjamin. And the book is titled, sleep Habits Journal Practices, prayers and Devotions to Ease Your Sleepless Nights.

So if you're an entrepreneur whose mind won't turn off at night, this is the episode for you.

[00:01:00]

Priscilla Shumba: Benjamin, let's jump straight into it. People say, I'm terribly exhausted, I'm very tired, but I can't get sleep. What immediately comes to mind? 

Dr. Benjamin Long: For starters, for your podcast audience specifically, I would just say, tell me what a typical day. Looks like for you especially for people who are go-getters and like you said, founders and starting their businesses and really driven individuals. I like to just get a full picture from tell.

Walk me through the moment you wake up until the moment you fall asleep, what does a typical day look like for you? And often I find it in my high achieving individuals, it is sleep is like my barrier to productivity or my to-do list or things of that nature. And so I might get up extra early because I want to prioritize, exercise or some other things [00:02:00] or.

Doing whatever task before I start my day, or if I have a side hustle, I'm gonna put some time in my side hustle before I actually get to my paying job a thing. And then a lot of times, same thing on the flip side, I don't really have a bedtime. I just try to get to bed whenever everything's finished.

So a lot of times the conversation just starts around, what are you filling your day with? 

Priscilla Shumba: you know, This is hustle culture. You're a busy person. You're a high achiever yourself. You know that people often think how much more can I pack into the day? of course, the thing that. Keeps getting less and less is sleep and then we struggle to go to sleep.

What led you to this 'cause this is really interesting what you're doing and how you've combined the idea of biblical knowledge as well as a medical knowledge around the issue of sleep. 

Dr. Benjamin Long: Everyone, whether they realize it or not, are operating out of some kind of theology. For people who don't believe in any kind of God or higher being or anything, they're operating out of that assumption and that theology, and that's gonna inform [00:03:00] how they are moving throughout their day.

And for me, my faith has always been something that's been really important to me. And so as I finished my medical education, I wanted to find pathways of how I could bring my whole self to my job and my calling as a physician. And so specifically in my practice of sleep medicine, I often found myself with patients who were believers themselves.

And I saw that there was this disconnect between saying that they are practicing. Christians is a big portion of my practice and saving prayer or Bible reading or things like that are really important to them. And yet when I ask them how they respond to their sleeplessness and where, what they turn to very infrequently or rarely did they ever say.

To God or to prayer or incorporated those things in their responses to insomnia. So that was just a little bit of a flag for me. And as I started to explore this more, I just had this curiosity of [00:04:00] what does the Bible have to say about sleep and sleeplessness? And turns out you do a word search. It pops up a lot.

So that has propelled me on this journey of what do these two different disciplines say of sleep and how can I find a way to, to bring those, that knowledge to people to help them. 

Priscilla Shumba: I know a lot of people who are like, they're on a sleepy tea or some kind of drink and apparently it should help them go to sleep and over time it's not helping them as much as it was before. And, everyone's doing all these things and it's almost like the idea of insomnia has become a norm.

Maybe you can speak to that and maybe tell us, what is insomnia. So we are on the same page.

Dr. Benjamin Long: We're in a little bit of a, what we call a lumper season for diagnostic criteria for insomnia. If we were talking 20, 30 years ago, we were in more of the splitters category where we're saying, oh, this is insomnia due to some kind of substance or insomnia due to some kind of medical condition or just primary insomnia.

And now we have lumped all that under the heading of chronic insomnia. [00:05:00] And so insomnia is really, if you have. Frequent difficulty falling asleep. We usually say within about 30 minutes of initiating sleep. Or that's, even if you're trying to maintain sleep, you wake up in the middle of the night and you can't fall back asleep.

And if that's happening at least three or four times a week and the always the and part is how that's impacting you and your daily life if you're having some difficulty falling asleep, but otherwise you're getting. The age appropriate norms and you're able to operate and do everything in your day.

Then from a clinical perspective, we don't necessarily do anything about that. But if you're waking up and you're like, I'm exhausted, I can't get through the day. I always need to take a nap in the middle of my day, or what have you, then that's when we're getting concerned and want to talk about some therapies or options to help get you on a better track.

Dr. Benjamin Long: so that is like our clinical definition of insomnia. Oh yeah. And you were saying it's the norm. Of today, and certainly we know epidemiologically that insomnia is on the rise. [00:06:00] We, there is increasing data that's looking at our cell phone use and our screen times and things of that nature and that, whether it is behavioral.

Or your circadian rhythm because of the light exposure, some combination of the two. We know those things are gonna be impacting our sleep rhythms. But we know that if you just look at long-term data that is, trended compared to like the 1970s, there's a greater prevalence of people who report intermittently having difficulty falling asleep today compared to back then.

Priscilla Shumba: So I'm interested to know like all the things that people try to do to get more sleep, what would you say is like, funny thing you can tell me about this, Benjamin. Because when I used to drink coffee every day, I was terribly exhausted until I had a cup of coffee. And then the moment I stopped drinking coffee, I was really tired for a long time.

Until eventually , my energy levels just normalized. Is there something to that?

Dr. Benjamin Long: coffee doesn't actually wake us up as much as it blocks our perception of [00:07:00] sleepiness. And so really your body's ability to process the things that make us sleepy in our brain. That takes time. And so our receptors in our brain that the caffeine attaches to blocks that a little bit.

So you get this increased vigilance and awake feeling, but then when the coffee wears off, if you're still sleep deprived, then you're gonna go straight back to having that sleepiness. So really the only way to help change that is if you're actually getting the adequate sleep that you need. 

Priscilla Shumba: There you go. for the Christian who says.

I hear you and I've got so many things to do and I've got so many things on my mind. What do you suggest I do first, to try and get the sleep thing under control? 

Dr. Benjamin Long: it's really interesting 'cause as

people come to me. Most of the time they have tried something like you've been talking about sleep time, tea, or taking some melatonin or doing all kind of gidgets and gadgets and supplements and all this stuff. And that's one of the first questions I ask is what have you tried so far?

And I [00:08:00] get a list of things that people have tried and what people often find is those things can work for you in a season. And. My best thought process at that, for the most part, for most people, is really that placebo effect, is that I believe that this is really going to work for me and we underestimate the power of the placebo effect in our mind and that ritual of just, I'm taking this supplement or this pill and I really.

Believe that's gonna work for me. And so it can work for a season and really help that, our more subjective experience of sleepiness. And oftentimes when I'm treating someone in a one-on-one doctor patient relationship, then I don't burst that bubble for them. I'm like, as long as you're safe and you're taking it how you're supposed to and we're not doing anything crazy, that's dangerous, then sure, go ahead and go for it.

I'll give you some guardrails. But most of the time, eventually it stops working. And people, come to their end where they're like, [00:09:00] how do I get things back on track? So a big thing for insomnia is what's called cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia. So it's a treatment that gets at your thoughts and your behaviors that are the root problems for perpetuating your

Insomnia, when we talk about insomnia. Timeline kind of progression. We know that there are some, if you imagine some kind of imaginary insomnia threshold, we know some people are gonna have a certain amount of predisposing factors that just come from either them genetics environment or something that are going to put them at a higher risk of.

Going over that insomnia threshold. And then there are gonna be precipitating factors that stack on top of that gets you above that. And I tell people to live is to experience precipitating factors. You're gonna have stresses in your day, new things, stuff that's. Problems that are coming at you that are going to make it difficult for you to fall asleep.

And so cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia gets then to that third [00:10:00] step, which is the perpetuating factors. This is things like taking long naps or sleeping in doing these things that help your sleep in the short run, but in the long term actually perpetuate your insomnia. And so the cognitive behavioral therapy is the best first place to start to help with that.

The problem is there's not always as many professionals who are trained in cognitive behavioral therapy specifically for insomnia, to help give people the guidelines that they need. So research has shown that even like self-help books or things that kind of give you some of those tools to help.

Give you some guardrails for your sleep. Can be just as effective or just as helpful as in person. If you have access to a sleep medicine professional, I always say, Hey, go, because there might be something else that's fragmenting your sleep. That might be for your specific situation. But as a lifeline, I think some of these books are really helpful.

And so that's what I was hoping to [00:11:00] write with the Sleep Habits Journal, was give people a lifeline but in a way that is culturally sensitive for people who are from my same background, from a Christian faith tradition that integrates their worldview, their belief systems, and to how they're responding to their sleeplessness. 

Priscilla Shumba: It's very interesting. You never think of like the genetic factors and environmental factors that are affecting your sleep. You always think it's a you thing. And of course, stress and things like that, they happen as part of being alive. The world is constantly changing.

So much is that of our control. I'm interested when you speak about the things that you can control, maybe speak to us in terms of your framework, why journaling and how that is helpful and so people can understand that. 

Dr. Benjamin Long: Yeah, absolutely in my book, I call this the Sleepless Night Rules. It's a five step framework for if you're faced with a sleepless night, what you can do in response to it. So essentially that. Framework is ceasing before bedtime and waiting to feel sleepy. So [00:12:00] making sure you're actually shutting down from the day disconnecting and preparing for sleep to come and then really waiting until you're actually feeling sleepy.

If you're wide awake and you get into bed, then that isn't necessarily going to be the best thing for you if you have insomnia. So wait to feel sleepy. Then once you start feeling sleepy, lie down. But if you can't fall asleep, then rising back up my framework, I say to connect with God until you're waiting to feel sleepy again. Compared to my approach to what you would get from a typical medical practice it's really more about that worldview and what you are oriented toward. For other people, they will say things like journaling or meditation, guided imagery, breathing, different kind of relaxation trainings and tips.

And one way that really does just distract your mind from the problem. For some people it is almost this anxiety, sometimes kind of performance anxiety component to their insomnia. Which there's a really interesting intervention that you can do called paradoxical intention for those people, and [00:13:00] that's where .

You tell yourself, you say to yourself, I'm gonna stay awake for as long as possible, which sounds really scary to someone who's experiencing insomnia, but what it does is it makes you confront that anxiety and that worry, and in a way it takes away a little bit of its power. And what people find is if that is a barrier for them, when they kind of embrace that.

I'm just gonna flip my mindset and I'm going to stay awake. Then they've taken away that anxiety, and then all of a sudden, if they're in tune with kind of what their body's doing, they'll notice, oh, my eyes are starting to feel a little bit heavy. I am starting to yawn. I am starting to feel a little bit more sleepy.

So sometimes it is like a specific technique that could be helpful for you, but for many of these interventions, I think one of them is just distracting you from the actual problem. And so then what fills that time is going to be what we value. So oftentimes you get very pragmatic answers from your sleep health professionals.

[00:14:00] They'll say, be efficient. Go pay some bills or do some laundry or be productive, or things of that nature. And there's no. Clinical reason to suggest those things. It's just something that as a culture we value. And so people tend to respond like, okay, sure, I'll go bake or I'll do this, or whatever, until I, starting to feel sleepy.

And so from a Christian worldview, you say, all of life is part of the spiritual life. And so then how can we bring this night before God? From a Christian worldview. Really there's not as much that supernatural, natural divide all of life and creation is sustained in an order by our creator God. And so if God created my sleep, he gives me sleep as a gift and he cares for me, then I can trust that he's going to bring the sleep that I need. That's a very different narrative. And so for Christians then we can. Meditate on those things. Remind [00:15:00] ourselves, remember those things.

Remember what God has done for us in the past. Think upon the things that God has promised for us in the future. And in a way it's a similar thing that we're not focusing on our problem. So that's, my hypothesis a little bit of why this should be just as effective as the secular humanist kind of components that we get in a lot of medical.

Practices today. But then it's just integrating that worldview and that belief of a Christian, that's gonna be a totally different experience compared to obviously if I was talking to an atheist and I said, okay, you should go pray to God. If you can't fall asleep, then that's not going to be something that they want to necessarily stick to or strive to or things of that nature.

I don't. Recommend people become religious in order to sleep better, per se. But actually there's some really fascinating, interesting data on religiosity and religious attendance and people who are involved in [00:16:00] church and community and tending to have better sleep quality. That could be a total other discussion that we could have.

But, yeah it's distracts us in a way, but also I think for me it really grounds me back in what brings me that meaning and purpose in my life. 

Priscilla Shumba: I see how, from a Christian perspective it can be really beneficial. You find peace in prayer and you can imagine how that helps with winding down and the day coming to an end, understanding that God's gift is for you to rest and to enjoy the fruit of your work, not to constantly be working in your mind all the time.

So when you bring in all those elements , it's different, but I had never made that connection between sleep and a biblical perspective so I think a lot of people who will hear this will be hearing this for the first time. And take us to why this is so important.

'cause I think people think they can just get away with very little sleep and not prioritizing sleep, all kinds of things from a cultural [00:17:00] perspective. But what are the dangers of this so people understand, why you should take this seriously. 

Dr. Benjamin Long: Overwhelmingly, we're continuing to see the detrimental effects of inadequate sleep that people have, especially later on in life. Like most chronic conditions, you don't experience the consequences and repercussions of your actions until way down the road. So the same thing. If you're not getting adequate sleep, then.

Pretty much you can point to most health outcomes and sleep tends to somehow impact that. The strongest tends to be in our cardiovascular system. So when we're talking about hypertension or blood pressure your coronary artery disease, heart health, things of that nature, we have pretty good data that shows there's a, direct association with your sleep.

And your cardiovascular health. Your sleep really touches upon your immune system, touches upon your hormones, touches upon, neurologically [00:18:00] what's going on as well. So we know that, there's even more data that's coming out when we're talking about like Alzheimer's, dementia and things of that nature, and being connected to inadequate sleep.

So for someone who's an insomniac, then you're like, okay, thanks Dr. Long. Now you're telling me all this stuff that I have a new thing to worry about. So obviously this is . Not for you. So I'm sorry for the people who are listening that hear that, but it really is for that I call them my midnight mechanics, where it's not necessarily the anxiety or the worry, it's just they don't value sleep because they just see it as a barrier to their productivity and efficiency.

And this really goes back to my work when I'm talking with people who are fellow believers. I often am coming back to say, okay, who is the one that is in control? Because when we're operating from that midnight mechanic and I need to get everything done, it's under this assumption that I'm the one that makes things happen.

If I don't hustle and if I don't do things, [00:19:00] then it's not gonna happen for me. And it's a slight adjustment there that I would say, you know what, if you don't cooperate, if you don't collaborate with God and you're not active in what it is that he's calling you to do, then yes, certain things are not going to happen for you, but you can't say it's all on me.

And one of my favorite psalms to go back to for this is Psalm 1 27. 'cause it speaks exactly for my midnight mechanics. It starts off with unless the Lord builds the house, those who build it labor in vain. Unless the Lord watches over the city, the watchman stays awake in vain. It's in vain that you rise up early and go late to rest.

Eating the bread of anxious toil for he gives to his beloved sleep. And so it really goes back to that unless God is the one who is actually sustaining and watching over things. Everything that we're doing is totally in vain. So it really flips that [00:20:00] narrative on its head to put us back into that proper distinction that I am vulnerable, I am a creature, and there is the creator God of the entire universe.

And how, odd it is for me to think that I'm somehow the one that is. Making things happen when even when I am asleep, God is awake and is ordering the universe to bring those opportunities to me that he has for me in the next day.It really comes back to that heart posture. And so I try to be sensitive there.

And that's not necessarily everyone's motivation, but oftentimes that's what I see for people who have a decreased, value on sleep is there is a little bit of a disordered desires and motivations there. 

Priscilla Shumba: so much you said there, immediately thought of the example that we're given, even in Genesis one, you don't need to get far in the Bible. The first page right there it is. At the end of the day, he looked at it and said, it is good. And [00:21:00] it says a lot about, you've done what you can do, look at it and be happy that it's good.

Even the Sabbath rest I know you speak a little bit about that. I'll get into that a little bit. And it's funny 'cause I was reading this book about that idea of self-sufficiency, of trying to make things happen yourself and the author. I'll link this somewhere if someone's interested, just let me know.

The author talks about how when we are trying to take control of things, like you're talking, we're, trying to do everything over God and the ways of God. And it's like we're pulling our fisted God every time we do that. And it's a rebellion. She says in the book, which, when you hear the word rebellion, oh, you know. 

Dr. Benjamin Long: Yeah.

Priscilla Shumba: the motive, you may be somewhat good, yes, you wanna produce, you wanna do more, but in the act of, forgetting that God is in control and trying to be in control of everything. . It's quite frightening to say that we find ourselves if we are not careful of what culture is telling us to do you speak of not just waiting for the Sabbath, rest

For someone who says, okay, Dr. Benjamin, [00:22:00] give me two or three habits that I can begin to. Change the way I'm approaching my sleep. . 

Dr. Benjamin Long: for people who may not be familiar with a weekly Sabbath that is a practice born out of Judaism, of taking one day aside that is modeled by God as we were just talking about at the beginning of all creation. At the end of the week, he stops and he says, this is good and that says that God rested and really that rest or the.

Hebrew word, there shalom, that becomes this theme that unfolds in the rest of the Bible, of entering God's rest. And for this way that creation is supposed to be, that then humanity quickly. Unravels that plan and God redeems it throughout the whole story of the biblical narrative.

And in that story of redemption, God invites his people to be able to experience that rest now every single week. A pretty crazy thing when you [00:23:00] think about it back in the ancient near Eastern context where . You talk about hustle, you gotta hustle to survive. Like most of your day is about food and shelter and protection, and you are trying to focus on those things.

So those people were definitely hustling. And yet God still says, Hey, once a week I want you to. Pause and to rest and to reflect and really that is that same alignment to say, okay, it is not me that makes the crops grow. That is God that is making the growth. So I can just participate in that.

But then also God invites us to enjoy it. And that's really what the Sabbath is. It should be this peak of your week that, not necessarily in the self-care way that we see of a typical kind of weekend day off but in a way to celebrate the goodness of God's creation. I heard a really interesting [00:24:00] conversation with John Mark Comer who was talking about so often, people get to Sabbath and they're exhausted and it's like , they spend their Sabbath sleeping or to try and catch up and it's like. I might be missing, part of that glorious part of Sabbath to enjoy that rest that we have for today and not necessarily using it to catch up on our sleep. So all of that to say, it's a matter of reorganizing to think, okay, how can I prioritize my sleep on a nightly basis so that way, I get to enjoy that Sabbath rest.

Once a week and not just use that Sabbath time in order for me to catch up on some sleep. And of course, I can just imagine some people in your audience who are like, okay, that sounds great, but you don't understand my schedule. You don't understand the stresses that I have for me in my life right now.

And you're totally right. I don't and. What I try to do in my book as I'm approaching that for people who are in those seasons of life, is you can still [00:25:00] invite God into those moments and to find ways to create those guardrails, you will have seasons where it's I gotta stay up late to, take care of this child or to study for this test or to house, train this puppy or something like that, so there's going to be seasons of life where your sleep is going to wax and wane, certainly. I tell people, I don't want you to. Then just be swept away by your whole life and go into season of sleeplessness after season of sleeplessness, after season of sleeplessness.

And oh man, there's a great quote. I don't know who says it. But it's something along the lines of how we spend our days is how we spend our lives. . If we're not trying to focus on how I'm spending my day and my habits and adjusting those things now, it's very easy that's just going to continue throughout multiple seasons of my life. 

Priscilla Shumba: When you talked about the people who spend all of their Sundays sleeping, I was like, have you been watching me? 

Dr. Benjamin Long: Yeah. Yeah. And and. It's [00:26:00] that is good. God bless us for giving us that margin to be able to catch up. I don't wanna like shame people on the same front. But I just am trying to invite people into a bigger picture, into a different mindset. 

Priscilla Shumba: No, absolutely. I take that as a good challenge. It's something that I think that's the way it was designed. Sometimes we get outta misalignment and it's good to have these kind of conversations that help you think about things differently for people who are listening.

I'm sure someone is a parent. I am a parent. Definitely. I'm gonna ask for myself as well. It's so hard to get children to sleep and it's always like that bedtime routine is always the thing that when parents are trying to get them into bed, so the day can come to an end, but they're resisting.

What would you say for that age group? 'cause I know as a pediatrician you're that age group too. 

Dr. Benjamin Long: Absolutely. Again, a lot of nuance here, but what I'm hearing from your story is a very specific question of what I like to call curtain calls. That's that age range. Usually in kind [00:27:00] of elementary age where they're like, mom, I want another glass of water. I want another story. I can you come lay down next to me.

. These good things that just stretch bedtime from 20 to 30 minutes to three hours. And you're like, oh my gosh, what is going on? And part of that we as sleep medicine physicians, we talk about a little bit of limit setting. Obviously I go into a full history if I was sitting down with someone to make sure, okay, let's make sure there's no separation anxiety going on, there's no traumas or anything like that.

One of the quick ways, that tend to help delineate those two things is this just the thing that happens at bedtime? Do you do school drop off and that kid's bye and they're just like going into school and they don't care if you're at church or whatever. They're fine, but then it's that just at that bedtime, they're exhibiting this behavior that's.

One situation compared to a child who has a history of anxiety. And that's gonna be two totally different children that I'm talking about at that time. So if it's really just this [00:28:00] isolated bedtime thing, then one of the best things that you can do is what's called a bedtime pass. Where it's literally where you make like a hall pass.

I don't know if schools where y'all are from have like hall passes in order to go to the bathroom or whatever. Or maybe that's just a weird American thing that we do. But it's essentially a pass. That way if your child has some request, then they have to exchange their pass for that request. And I tell families make it a fun thing.

Create the passes together. Often tell parents to start with several passes first, and then as the kid gets the idea, then to decrease the amount of passes. And so then the whole point of the passes, if they have that. At the next morning, then you double up with some kind of positive reinforcement.

So I usually tell parents, put a sticker on a sticker chart, and once you get three stickers, have some kind of small prize, maybe by the end of the week have a slightly bigger price. The main thing here is the prize has to be desirable to the child. So that's a big barrier that some parents get is they're like, okay, we're [00:29:00] gonna do this prize.

And it doesn't motivate the child. So if you have a child who you can talk to and brainstorm and ask what they want, then, talk and have that. Conversation. The flip side is it has to be acceptable to you. So if it's like a new Barbie Dream house, every single time I lay down to go to sleep, that's not gonna be sustainable.

So have that kind of give and take a little bit. What that forces your child to do is they have to stop and think, okay, is this request worth giving up my bedtime pass for? Again, , there can be a lot of issues with troubleshooting that. So if you're in that situation there are, good pediatric sleep.

Health professionals. Sometimes we're a little bit harder to find but you can definitely like try to find someone in your area to help troubleshoot those things. And a lot of pediatricians, they have this within their tool belt as well. So that would be a good first place to start too. 

Priscilla Shumba: Oh, thank you for that. , I'm definitely gonna use that because it's always the, I need to say one more thing.

I just remembered. I wanted to tell you one more thing. Ah. 

Dr. Benjamin Long: [00:30:00] Yeah. Yep. Yep. Absolutely. 

Priscilla Shumba: Thank you so much Dr. Benjamin Long if we can go into a rapid fire before we finish up. Is it ever okay to catch up on sleep on weekends? 

Dr. Benjamin Long: Absolutely. When I'm talking about like fatigue mitigation, sometimes you do just have to do what you can for that short-term thing. So don't make it a long-term strategy, but if it's a once in a blue moon every now and then to catch up. Sure. That's something you can do him. 

Priscilla Shumba: I like that you mentioned how these sort of little things we do to catch up or to balance things up. As they become habitual, they become a problem in themselves. 

Dr. Benjamin Long: Yeah. And if you think about it, your sleep is a 24 hour pattern, so it's that same delayed consequence. Again, we don't necessarily think about if I stayed up. On Saturday night, that actually can impact my ability to fall asleep on Monday night. But we don't really think about it because it was two nights ago.

But because your sleep patterns are over a 24 hour pattern, you can have a little bit of that [00:31:00] delay of how it's impacting your sleep. So another thing that can be really helpful is just tracking your sleep for a two week sleep diary. I'm a big fan of doing that 'cause sometimes you track that and then you'll realize.

Oh, actually, yeah, every single Monday or every single Wednesday or something like that, I'm noticing this pattern of I'm having difficulty falling asleep here. So sometimes you can even self intuitively figure out what is that barrier to sleep. 

Priscilla Shumba: Oh, so good. Best time to stop drinking caffeine during the day for most people. 

Dr. Benjamin Long: Yeah, most people is usually about 10 hours before falling asleep. Your caffeine I think, should have something around like a six to seven hour half life. So it does vary for some people, but a safe rule of thumb is about 10 hours. 

Priscilla Shumba: Oh, that's good to know. Most underrated sleep habits. 

Dr. Benjamin Long: Most underrated sleep habit.

I would say

within insomnia is getting out of bed when you can't sleep. Because so often what we. think psychologically is [00:32:00] happening is over years and years of tossing and turning and being awake and frustrated in bed. You connect your bed as being this place that you are frustrated and awake, and then that is a place that you're going to be.

Awake and have more emotions. And so you create this, what we would call a conditioned arousal, where I'll often hear people say, as I'm going to bed, like I could be on the couch and falling asleep, but the minute I get into my bedroom, then all of a sudden I'm wide awake. That is. What we think might be part of that conditioned arousal.

And so when we're telling you to get out of bed it's not just for fun, we're, we are trying to do something here to send this really strong signal to our brains that the bed is the place that should be for sleep. And I wanna limit any other activities as much as possible outside of sleep for that. 

Priscilla Shumba: Wow. I'd never thought of that. But it does make sense that, when you're on the couch, it's like you fall asleep in two seconds

Dr. Benjamin Long: yeah. And honestly, sometimes I do a little bit of a mind trick. This isn't necessarily something I tell people to do all the time, but [00:33:00] like I find it works for me sometimes is I imagine myself back. On the couch or back in my child's bedroom, and then all of a sudden I'll find myself being sleepy.

And I don't know if it's I'm distracting myself or I'm actually convincing myself I'm not in my bedroom. But either way, sometimes it works. 

Priscilla Shumba: For a person who's gonna read your book, what is the message that you want them to walk away with? 

Dr. Benjamin Long: Yeah, I think the biggest message is that, God is available to you any time of day, including in your sleepless night. So it's really bringing people's sleep to God's feet and to say, recognize, okay, I don't have control over this thing, but I believe in you and have faith and trust that you care for me and for what I need, and so I can release that expectation.

To this beautiful picture we have within the Christian faith of a God [00:34:00] who in the Bible says that he never grows weary. And actually in Psalm 1 21 says that he never needs to sleep and yet paradoxically comes incarnate in Jesus to be fully man. And so experiences what it's like to have insomnia and to suffer from sleeplessness.

And so then. Through Jesus' death and resurrection and the Holy Spirit being available to us can comfort us in our sleepless state because in a very real way, God understands what it's like to experience insomnia and that's something , that really runs through this book, is that we can trust God.

With this is a very different paradigm compared to what you get in typical cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia. And so as such, it's just a unique different path through the sleepless night. 

Priscilla Shumba: Thank you so much for that. The name of the book is Sleep Habits Journal Practices, prayers and Devotions To Ease Your Sleepless Nights by Dr. Benjamin Long. Please. I know we talked about [00:35:00] all the reasons why the scary stuff, but maybe let's finish off on a positive note of if you get enough sleep, let's make this a 2026 goal of fixing the way we sleep.

If you get enough sleep, what can we look forward to? Benjamin. 

Dr. Benjamin Long: one of the beautiful things we see in the biblical narrative is that sleep. Is this thing that God uses for us to participate in blessing and righteousness. Like it, it truly impacts my relationships with the people around me. There's nothing like having a terrible night's sleep and then snapping at your children or like at your coworkers and all that kind of stuff.

And so when we are getting good sleep, then that does ripple out to my community and the people that are around me. And speaking as someone who has been totally sleep deprived. When I was doing my medical education and working 90 plus hours as a resident, it wasn't until two months after I was back to a normal sleep routine that I finally woke up one day and I was like, oh, [00:36:00] wow, I feel normal.

And all of a sudden now it's I have this capacity that I want to connect with people in a way that I felt like had been missing for a season of my life. So in a real tangible way, when we get the sleep that we need, then that impacts how I am stitched into the people around me. 

Priscilla Shumba: I like that. I actually see like things going from gray to color, that being present and really being able to take in every moment. a lot of people complain about being bored, but I think a lot of that being bored, sort of being shut off to what's happening, to what's actually happening.

That, That there's excitement and energy and i'm excited for that. Let's change this narrative. Thank you so much for the work you've done. If you'd like to say something before we end. 

Dr. Benjamin Long: Absolutely. Like I thank you so much for plugging the book. If you're interested in getting that, then you can go to sleep habits journal.com and that will have all of the different online retailers where you can buy that. There is a Kindle Virtual option for my international listeners that aren't located in America.

, I [00:37:00] do try to say. Because I am not the biggest fan of screens. Try to say, get the physical book if you can. But otherwise you can find me on the wholehearted md.com or on Instagram or TikTok. And I give a lot of these tidbits and tips and stuff like that, that are in the journal in my social media.

If you don't necessarily have access 

Follow me at the Wholehearted md for both Instagram and TikTok, or I also have a newsletter, so if you go to the wholehearted md.com, you can sign up there for my newsletter. 

Priscilla Shumba: thank you so much and thank you for the work that you're doing. I think it's needed. Thank you so much.

Dr. Benjamin Long: Thank you, Priscilla. It was great to be here.

Priscilla Shumba: I.